Written By: Clint Iams, NAFCA Executive Director, Amity, PA and co-“written” with Dan Blanc, My Fence Life, Ponchatoula, LA
Last week I had an opportunity to call Dan Blanc, host of the “My Fence Life” podcast, and explain the great things we are working on here at NAFCA. So instead of reading this blog post, hop over to Dan’s website and listen to our conversation.
Transcript below ——-
Hello.
Hey, Dan — this is Clint Ames with the North American Fence Contractors Association. How are you?
I’m doing good, man. Did I do something wrong that you’re calling me now?
No, no, of course not. I thought it was time we had a little conversation so I could share some of the things we’re doing over here at NAFCA with you and your listeners.
Yeah, man, I’m totally down. How are you doing?
I’m doing really well. It’s a really pretty spring day here in southwestern Pennsylvania. You know, David got us up there, and he’s kicking ass and taking names, man.
I see he’s been pretty busy. I see a lot of posts.
Yeah, yeah — he’s pretty active… well, he’s not as active. He’s more focused on his business now, but he’s doing some crazy things, man. He’s doing some crazy stuff.
So what can I do for you?
I just thought it’d be a good thing if you and I had a little conversation, and I can share some of the things that have gone on at NAFCA — the North American Fence Contractors Association.
Okay. Yeah, well let’s talk about it, man, because I don’t know a whole lot about NAFCA. I know a decent amount about… I know a lot about DFW, and that’s only because Brian calls me on a regular to give me updates — kind of like what you’re doing right now.
Sure.
So tell me, man — when was NAFCA founded? Why was it founded? Who are you? Tell our listeners.
NAFCA was founded in 2011. There were a group of contractors that felt the smaller owner-operators needed a little better representation within the industry. There were 8 to 10 founding members back then in 2011. They got together and formed the association. I’ve been the executive director since 2016.
Okay. So you weren’t there when it was formed?
I was not.
So sounds like to me, because RFA was in existence then… so probably you guys probably didn’t like how things were going, so you’re like, “Screw it, we’re going to start our own deal.”
Well, I can’t speak for the times since I wasn’t there, but I think it was more that they wanted focus for the contractor. You know, a contractor — especially a smaller contractor — is noticeably different than a big manufacturer such as Ameristar or something like that. So there was a group that wanted some representation for the smaller contractor operators.
Okay. Yeah. So like, I’m on the board for the ACR and it’s made up of fence guys, but there are manufacturers on that board and there’s a lot of manufacturers involved, and it kind of gets a blurred line there. There’s not enough fence people involved. I think the reason why is because the manufacturers are willing to come in and volunteer. Fence guys aren’t.
But when it comes to NAFCA, what is your ratio of fence guys and manufacturers?
Yeah, I would guess 20 to 25% of our membership is a manufacturer. There’s also a number of members that are kind of dual — like my own personal company, Wall Cap. Since we’re an installer as well as we manufacture commercial grade post drivers. So there’s a few that are kind of in both camps. And we appreciate those manufacturers’ support. Those are the guys donating the material we use for our volunteer service projects. Those are the guys donating the material we use for our training school.
So we do have that support from manufacturers, but we’re still heavily representing the contractor.
Okay. I get where you’re coming from.
So it was founded in 2011 because they wanted more focus on the contractor.
Yeah.
And you’ve been the executive director since 2016.
That’s right. Six, seven years.
And hey — I’m just going to put this out there for our listeners that might not know how to find you. Your website is 4NAFCA.com, correct?
That is correct. We’re also on Facebook — Facebook/4NAFCA.
Okay. Are you anywhere else? Instagram? TikTok? You got a social media guy?
I kind of wear all those hats, and really we just focus on those couple things there. We do have an email distribution list that will send out email updates to the members as well, but we haven’t really verged over into Instagram or TikTok yet.
Okay. And how many members do you think y’all got?
Yeah, we finished up last year with around 60 members. I think we’ll hit that same — maybe slightly more — this year. We’re just wrapping up our membership drive, trying to get everybody to finalize their paperwork and renew for this current year.
Well, you reached out to me a couple years ago to join, and I didn’t join.
Yeah, I tried to talk you into it.
You tried hard, man. It was through Facebook inbox. But I was just like, “Man, I just don’t know if I need this.” And I’ll be honest with you — I’m at a point right now where until all these associations can get on the same page and start working together, I think I might just pull on all of them and just sit back and talk about them… point out what’s good, what’s bad… and come in with an unbiased opinion. I don’t know — something I’m thinking about.
We get a lot of questions trying to compare us to the other associations, and I always dislike that because I don’t think you can really compare. You have one major big player that’s been in the industry for a very long time. Then you have us — we’ve been around since 2011, so about 12 years or so. And then you have a new one that’s got massive momentum with tons of membership. One’s a little bit expensive to join. Ours is very attainable at $250. And the other one’s free. So it’s not really an apples-to-apples comparison.
The way I like to tell people: for an upstarting company that’s trying to gain their footing, having the support and recognition of a fence trade organization is going to help them. It shows their customers they’re committed to doing the best job they can.
And then for a more established company — a company like yours isn’t going to need the support from NAFCA like those younger guys do. But you can rest well knowing that that $250 in dues is going to help improve the industry through our fence training school or through our service projects. You’re giving back to society and to the industry.
Yeah. I know my buddy, Kevin Nelson, was pretty involved with NAFCA.
Kevin came through our school in 2018 or 2019. Kevin’s a great guy. And he sent other employees to our school as well.
Yeah, I like Kevin. And you also have Sean King on your board of directors, right?
We do. I’ve had the privilege of working with Shawn at our school for the last two years. He was an instructor this past year in early February, as well as last year. Anytime Shawn comes to the table, it’s high energy. It’s good stuff. It’s always great to hang out with him.
Man, I credit Sean King for the reason why I built fence the way I do today — literally changing my business. I’m a huge Sean King fan when it comes to all that and his tools. I might have this wrong, but I think he’s the vice president now.
He is.
I think I saw that last week… most recent week. I saw that he’s the VP for… yeah, Brian’s got a lot of stuff coming out. And I think that goes right along with Sean’s “a rising tide raises all ships.”
Oh, absolutely.
You agree with that?
I think the industry needs to continue to elevate itself. I think too many people in the past maybe looked at it like, “I’m just a fencer,” and I don’t think that’s fair or accurate. Us fencers are protecting our nation’s airports and government facilities. It’s protecting your yard and your backyard. So yeah — I think we need to take pride in that.
And if we work together via these associations and we do a better job, the whole industry benefits. The whole industry elevates.
Yes. I agree wholeheartedly.
So you sent me an email and gave me some background on yourself — you’re a second-generation fencer, correct?
Correct.
You were born in 1980… and your dad started a fence company in 1981.
That’s right.
He must’ve been like, “I gotta feed this guy. You must eat a lot.”
That’s it.
My parents started the business in ’81. Up here in southwestern PA, my dad got his start working in the coal mines and he got laid off a time or two. He got tired of being dependent on somebody else for his income.
My dad grew up on a farm. We still run a 400-acre beast of a farm. He ended up building some fence for my grandfather. A neighbor saw it and liked the quality job my dad did. So he went and built fence for the neighbor. It kind of grew from there.
Yeah — that’s how Dan Williams started. I know Dan real well. Dan’s a real good guy.
Sure.
So what is the name of your company?
It’s Log Cabin Fence.
Okay, so we’re primarily a farm and ranch fence contractor, so we’re obviously different than probably a lot of your listeners. We’re not doing a whole lot of the backyard fence. We’re doing stuff for cattle and horses and such.
Okay. So you got one of those post drivers… one person can build fence.
Yes. We actually manufacture our own post driver called the Log Cabin Pro Driver. That’s what we use. We have several of them. We have them mounted on one-ton pickup trucks and skid steers and little track machines and such. That’s what we’re using. We’re out there driving wooden posts into the ground and building the brace and stretching wire, woven wire, whatever the job calls for.
Now, Mark Olsen’s got a bunch of round posts for sale.
Yeah, he’s a little too far from me. That’s a good price on the posts, but I don’t know if I can justify driving to Florida to pick them up.
I mean, it could be a business expense — go down to Florida, dip your toes in the ocean, watch Mark surf, and wish you were out there.
Could surf also.
Yeah, I go to Florida once a year for our fence training school and that usually satiates my needs. I’d rather head to the mountains.
Really?
Really.
So it says in the email you sent me that you fenced as a kid through high school, college… then you left the family business for about four or five years to go do something else, then you came back and you’ve been there ever since.
That’s correct. I went to school, got an accounting degree, and I did audit work out of college. My end goal was always to come back to the family business, but I wanted outside experience so I could bring more to the table.
By doing audit work, that gave me a great opportunity because I could see the inside of a number of different big — profitable or even not profitable — businesses. And I brought that experience back to Log Cabin Fence over 17 years ago whenever I came back.
Yeah. And you mentioned you just finished your MBA.
I did. I just finished up in December.
Nice. So you’re bringing some of the things you learned from college and your degrees and bringing those processes into NAFCA.
Correct. Even though NAFCA is a nonprofit, I think you have to run any business or any entity as a business. You have to look at the dollars. You have to look and see what’s going to make us money, where are we going to lose money. I’m looking at those things whenever I’m running my personal business and whenever we’re running NAFCA. So yeah, I’m taking that skillset and applying it.
Yeah. That’s like when you drive down a road and you see mega-churches and then churches that don’t have the money to paint the building… I think, “That preacher isn’t a good businessman. That preacher is.” And they’re nonprofits. So I like that you’re doing that.
You mentioned y’all are currently working on your fence training school, and you added a date to it to do a large capstone — basically one full project, not just 20 feet of wood, 20 feet of aluminum, but one big project — and you learned that capstone concept through your MBA.
That’s right.
So to take a step back: what our school currently is — for the last ten years — we have eight different fence disciplines that we teach. Each student group spends about four to five hours doing chain link, wooden fence, PVC, gate operators, farm and ranch. It’s a wide “shotgun approach” to fence building.
What’s unique is we do all these projects at the municipal golf course in Sebring, Florida — so it’s real-world application. When we install that final privacy fence or wooden picket fence, we’re doing it around the playground or around the maintenance facility. Full sections. Full footage. No half measures. Everything is a permanent installation.
On Tuesday night, all of us instructors have a nice dinner and we talk about what worked, what didn’t, and what we can do to improve because we’re trying to constantly improve this educational offering.
And through discussion, Sean’s initial suggestion was doing a large project to really show students: when you’re laying out a backyard chain link or ornamental aluminum, what do you do when the gas line is right where that post is supposed to go? Our four-to-five-hour classes show some of that, but it’s not the same as showing it start-to-finish.
My very last MBA class was the capstone, and it pushed everything together into one final project. That’s what we feel is going to be a good thing for our school: add one day where all the students get the exposure and experience in different types of fence, and then we take one day where everybody works together. We start with a barren backyard area and at the end of the day there’s a completely done fence project — permanent installation.
Right. So we’re working through the logistics. Our school director is Mark Frost — he’s been in the industry a very long time. He’s working with the city trying to find what that marquee capstone project is going to be.
We actually had our board meeting yesterday on Zoom discussing these things and putting some plan into action. The other thing we discussed yesterday is adding a business management/sales/marketing/QuickBooks portion to the school — either before or after the installation school. So a new company, an owner-operator, could come to both portions. Or a company like yours — established — you could just send people to the installation aspect.
Good stuff, man.
We have a great group of volunteers on our board of directors. They’re taking their time to improve the industry through these trainings. We run a pretty tight budget, obviously, on membership at only about $260. When board members come to Florida or go to Virginia for our fall meeting, they pay travel out of pocket. They’re volunteering their time and their pocketbook to make the industry better.
Yeah. And having Sean in those installation discussions — he’s got so much value to bring.
Oh yeah. We’re very thankful to have him on the board. He brings energy and knowledge from what he’s doing with his businesses and he’s volunteering it to NAFCA to help us make the education as best as it can be.
Man, I saw Al Martins — that guy is impressive.
Yes — we do have Al as president. I’ve had the privilege of working closely with Al for a number of years. I’m thankful to get to work with him.
I’ve got that show saved — haven’t got to it yet — but I’m looking forward to it.
I’ve got a friend who builds cranes for oil platforms and he has a hunting camp. He takes clients hunting and he says, “When you sit in a stand with someone for three or four hours, and then again in the afternoon, all you do is sit and talk — you learn a ton and build a relationship.” That makes a lot of sense.
With all that being said, I’d like to take about a three or four hour car ride with Al somewhere. Because I feel like when I get out of that car ride I’m going to be like, “Alright — I’m a better person.”
That’s one of the perks of being involved with NAFCA. When I’m seeing people at training school in Florida, or when we do a volunteer service project at Arlington National Cemetery where we replace dilapidated fence at no cost — manufacturers donate the aluminum or chain link and we go in and replace it — you get to work alongside people like Al. You build rapport that becomes lifelong friendships.
I’ve got friends here, but I can’t talk about running a business with them. They don’t understand the nuances. But when you’re with people running these businesses, they know exactly how much it sucks when it starts raining on the day you planned to start a big project, or when the utility lines look like a maze, or when the customer comes out and says, “My snake dog is going to get under that fence, right?”
Yeah — as a farm fence guy, I don’t worry about that as much, but I’ve got to keep that cow or horse in.
Exactly right.
So right now, y’all are focusing on this training school — coming up in early February 2024?
That’s right.
You need to send me your calendar events so I can get that added to the My Fence Life calendar on myfencelife.com. I’ve got everything on there from AFA, ASA… hopefully now NAFCA. I think we’re also adding gate operator stuff.
Yeah, we’ll send that over to you. Tentative dates this year are February 11th to the 14th. We haven’t finalized yet, but most likely the capstone will be Thursday the 15th. We don’t know yet if business management will be before installation starts or after installation ends. We should have that answer in the next two to four weeks.
Have you thought about making that business management part online?
We have. For the first round, I’m sure it’ll be in person. I’m not opposed to Zoom — we all utilized Zoom during the pandemic — but there’s no way you can replace being in person and having those discussions. The networking you get, hanging out with people, having a drink at the bar after class — those connections you don’t get online.
For the first round, we’ll do it in person. Maybe we consider online in the future.
You have to keep in mind a guy like Colby — one truck, one man — he’s running the truck and the business. Wouldn’t it be nice if he could log in at 8pm, sit through a business class, and learn something? He might miss the bar networking, but he still gets value.
It absolutely is. No question.
The reason we run our school in early February is most northern guys are slow then. Either they’re not working because of snow or mud. So we do it in the off-season, right before the season kicks off.
You’re hitting the nail on the head. A guy like Colby — it’s hard to justify the expense and time away to travel to Florida, especially if he’s using the money he squirreled away to make it through winter.
Not that there isn’t still expense, but NAFCA runs our education at cost. This past year, students paid around $2,000 to $2,500 all-in, Sunday through Thursday morning — classes, hotel, meals — plus their travel to Florida. Our volunteer instructors and volunteers help make it attainable.
You’re right — there’s tremendous merit to it. But in 2003 or 2004, if you said $2,500 to come learn fencing, I’d have been like, “I’m good, bro.” That money pays my house note, car note, insurance. But back then, with inflation, it might’ve been like $500. I’m comparing to when I was where Colby is now.
Sure — absolutely.
And that’s why I like Sean’s YouTube videos.
Oh yeah. And I’d say, look — this is how we’re doing it. We have members offering other options if people don’t have time or means to travel. We’re choosing what we feel is the best fit for us.
Everybody knows their skill set. At Log Cabin Fence, I don’t touch chain link. My guys don’t do chain link. I know what our skill set is, and we’re doing the same thing at NAFCA. Adding an online portion doesn’t fit what our guys are skilled to do right now.
I hear you. I’m just throwing it out there.
Oh no — it’s definitely something that can be done in the future. But for the initial round, the in-person part is what we’ll focus on.
I mean, we ran our entire country for a year on Zoom.
Absolutely.
Let me ask you this: what value do trade organizations actually have today?
I think the whole trade organization industry has dramatically changed in the last 20-plus years. When my dad was building his business in the late 80s and early 90s, it was imperative he got to FenceTech so he could see new tools and materials. But now if I want to research a new tool, I pick up my phone and Google it or watch YouTube.
And if you look at Facebook groups, there are probably 12 or 15 different fence groups now. You’ll see someone like Colby ask a question, and you’ll see two or three comments that are absolute garbage — horrible advice — and Colby doesn’t know the difference. Then you’ll see three or four other guys give better info.
A group like NAFCA can provide better information. When students come through our school, they get the phone numbers of our instructors. So when they have a unique project, they can call the right people and know they’re getting solid advice.
That networking and camaraderie is what the association offers. Training opportunities. Volunteer opportunities — like Arlington — where you might not normally install aluminum, but you come help tear out old chain link and install new aluminum. That helps improve the industry.
Did you just mention Debbie and Don Roach?
Oh yeah. Debbie’s on our board.
Really? They’re a couple from Kansas that fence together every day.
Yes. Great people.
Dude, I met them in Nebraska at Matt Warner’s Epic event — Operation Epic or something. I was blown away just talking to them.
You’ll be hard pressed to find a duo with the amount of knowledge as those two, and they’re solid people.
Yeah. So man — you’ve got a pretty stacked board.
We’ve got a great board. They’re also instructors for fence training school. Deb and Donovan have been instructors for a number of years. The collective experience of our instructors is something like 450 to 500 years of fencing experience among ten to twelve instructors.
Yeah — Debbie and Don Roach, Sean King, Al Martins… impressive. I tried to pull the website up to make some notes and it was down. You said you were doing maintenance.
Yeah — WordPress did an update and crashed the website. Our web person is hopefully going to get that straightened out before this podcast airs.
Yeah — I don’t know when it’s going to air. I’ve been stacking these up.
Man, impressive stuff. I appreciate you giving me a call. Anything else you wanted to talk about?
I think we’ve talked a lot about what’s going on. At the end of the day, we’re just attempting to make the industry the best it can be. We’ve got board members, training school instructors, and members that are out there every day trying to be the best they can be at their thing — whether it’s farm fencing, aluminum, gate operators.
We’re looking for more. We want people to join our association. We want people to ask questions. We want to be able to answer them. The more support we have, the more members we have, the more we’re able to do — trainings, volunteer service projects.
So if anyone has questions, feel free to hit us up on email or our Facebook page. We’re happy to answer. And maybe after this you’ll decide to join as well.
Yeah, man. I’m totally rethinking my whole deal with joining the associations. I think I just need to step back and think about things a little bit.
What’s the email?
It’s real straightforward: info@4nafca.com.
Perfect. I’ll put all this in the show notes.
Perfect.
Good stuff, man. I appreciate the call. Feel free to call me anytime — “Hey man, we got something going on, I want to talk about this,” you know, and we’ll share it.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, brother. It was great talking to you. You keep on fencing.
All right, man. You do the same.
Bye.
